The Author Revolution® Podcast
We've reached the indie author revolution, my friend, and it's time to talk honestly about how you can manifest your millionaire author destiny. I believe all creatives are called here for a purpose bigger than they realize and making money is an extension of that. You are worthy of making the money you've always dreamed of. I'm going to show you the way.
The Author Revolution Podcast is here to help guide you. I'll give you actionable advice, tips, and tricks to make stepping into your millionaire author career feel easy. I can't wait for you to reach your full author potential. You are inevitable.
Go forth and start your author revolution!
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The Author Revolution® Podcast
Unlocking Buzzworthy Book Marketing: Judy Baker’s Path to Author Success
In this inspiring episode, I sit down with Judy Baker, creator of the Buzzworthy Book Experience, to dive into the transformative world of book marketing. Whether you’re a nonfiction author looking to boost your brand or a fiction writer wanting to connect with readers, Judy’s actionable insights will help you create lasting impact. From creating buzz around your book to building authentic relationships, Judy shares her unique approach to making book marketing simple, fun, and effective.
Plus, I share some exciting news about the future of the Author Revolution Podcast and what’s coming next! Head to authorrevolution.org/264 for all the details, and don’t miss this engaging conversation!
The Author Revolution Podcast is evolving! Starting January 1st, join me on the Manifest Differently Podcast—a space for neurodivergent thinkers to embrace manifestation in ways that align with how we’re wired. If you’re ready to manifest on your terms, visit ManifestDifferently.com or tune in to Episode 1 at manifestdifferently.com/1.
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Go forth and start your author revolution!
Welcome to the Author Revolution podcast, where change is not just embraced, it's celebrated. I'm Carissa Andrews, international bestselling author, indie author coach and your navigator through the ever-evolving landscape of authorship. Are you ready to harness the power of your mind and the latest innovations in technology for your writing journey? If you're passionate about manifesting your dreams and pioneering new writing frontiers, then you're in the perfect place. Here we merge the mystical woo of writing with the exciting advancements of the modern world. We dive into the realms of mindset, manifestation and the transformative magic that occurs when you believe in the impossible. We also venture into the world of futuristic technologies and strategies, preparing you for the next chapter in your author career. Every week, we explore new ways to revolutionize your writing and publishing experience, from AI to breakthrough thinking. This podcast is your gateway to a world where creativity meets innovation. Whether you're penning your first novel or expanding your literary empire, whether you're a devotee of the pen or a digital storyteller, this podcast is where your author revolution gains momentum. So join me in this journey to continue growth and transformation. It's time to redefine what it means to be an author in today's dynamic world. This is the Author Revolution Podcast, and your author revolution starts now. Well, hey there guys. Welcome back to the Author Revolution Podcast.
Speaker 1:Today, I am thrilled to introduce a guest whose energy, expertise and passion for helping authors is absolutely infectious. I had the pleasure of connecting with Judy Baker, thanks in part to Brett Ridgway, who you might remember from a recent episode, and let me tell you, this conversation dives deep into one of my favorite topics marketing for authors. Judy Baker is the creator of the Buzzworthy Book Experience and she's a powerhouse in the world of book marketing. While her focus is often on nonfiction authors, the wisdom she shares is universally applicable. So, fiction authors, perk your ears, because this episode is for you as well. Judy is celebrated for her quirky, hands-on approach, making the complex world of book marketing not only approachable but fun, and I can tell you from experience in this conversation she definitely makes it fun. So, from branding and visibility strategies to connecting with readers in authentic ways, she's here to inspire you and empower you.
Speaker 1:Beyond her impressive resume, judy's story is deeply personal and inspiring. She's a hack collector, a lover of bees and a survivor who's turned her own challenges into a source of Well. Hi, judy, welcome to the Author Revolution podcast you won't want to miss. Let's dive into the magic of marketing with Judy Baker. Well hi, judy, welcome to the Author Revolution podcast. I'm really excited to bring you on to the show today. So in my introduction I talked a little bit about you, about how I got to know you, but can you tell my audience a little bit about your journey and what inspired you to help nonfiction authors turn their books into moneymakers? Such a great introduction, by the way. I love that.
Speaker 2:Oh well, and that was really the impetus for me getting involved with authors in the first place. I was working with a client who had a book and another friend of ours we were all in a, we were all in a Vistage group, a mastermind. And the first person is an author who wrote about his dogs after he retired from the FBI. No, no less. Goodness. My friend and I are both marketing experts in different fields, but he had a book of cartoons. And so our friend, the FBI agent, said you know, there's going to be a meeting of the Bay Area Independent Publishers. They're having a conference this weekend. Why don't you go? You're going to learn a lot. Well, we went, I walked in the door and I saw I'm going to try to show you exactly what this is how the authors. They wanted to sell their books, but they were scared out of their shoes.
Speaker 1:I can imagine that very well.
Speaker 2:Yes, We've all been there for some reason and I went. Well, I know how to sell other things, I know how to market, and I don't market by saying buy this, buy that. It's always about storytelling. So, these are all storytellers. So let me use my skills as a marketing strategist and I've got a built-in audience because there's always people writing books but they don't know how to do it. So I got chills. I just got chills, and I came home and I looked at my client list and they were all authors.
Speaker 1:Oh, how funny is that? And you're like wait a minute.
Speaker 2:It didn't even dawn on me that every single one of them I was doing other things for them, but they were all authors as well, and that was the impetus for me to start my journey as a book coach, a book marketing coach, and now I'm evolving again. And now I'm looking at how do you create buzz? Because it's a buzz around you, your book and your business, and I'm a writer myself. But I know that until you publish it, nobody knows what's going on there. But I'm changing the scenario. I love that. Yeah, that's how that happened.
Speaker 1:So what? What was your interest then around the concept of buzz? Were you seeing that a lot of? I'm assuming that this is mostly for nonfiction authors, but do you work with fiction authors as well, like I do?
Speaker 2:I do, but I focus on nonfiction because I'm I am a business owner, I'm an author, but I'm a cross genre author, so I have nonfiction, fiction, poetry, memoir all in there.
Speaker 2:But it's a little. You slant it a little differently because it's always depending on who's your audience. If I'm trying to sell you, a business owner, my poetry you might look at me like what are you talking about? But if I tell you I've got a business solution for you and it's going to help your business, your ears have now just perked up and that's how you do it.
Speaker 2:You talk to people. Have you ever watched bees? Mm-hmm, yeah, we've got a garden and we planted specific plants to attract bees Because, as most people know, there was a worldwide collapse of the bee population, and so we said, okay, we're going to help them out. Well, the bees don't go to every single plant. They look for the ones that can nourish them. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:And so then they're collecting pollen from those plants, but they're not just going to one plant, they're going to multiple plants, so they're taking the pollen from one, putting it somewhere else where it can do good, and they're getting pollen that they are going to take back to the hive to make honey. Right.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, think about that. And there are specific insects, not just bees. There are specific insects for every plant that needs that kind of pollination. So we've got, we've got, these little tiny wasps that pollinate our mulberry tree. We've got our mulberry tree, we've got, you know, the bees. But yeah, so you want to be specific gather, gather, give and make, make honey. From what you're learning.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. So what? Where did your concept of the, the buzz, come from? Is it literally the fact that you were witnessing the bees, or was it like? I want to be able to help authors understand this concept, because I know from my perspective there are a lot of authors who do not understand the concept of buzz at all it was a little bit of both um, because I noticed that too many authors focus on their launch date.
Speaker 2:They don't focus on the long-term and seriously, let's. I'm looking. Okay, Carissa, you probably have the same issue. I see some books behind you, but I bet there's books over here and there's books over here and there's books maybe on the floor.
Speaker 1:There's books everywhere.
Speaker 2:Okay, and did the ones that aren't right on your desk today go out of date? Is the information in it not of value to you?
Speaker 1:No, they're still perfectly good, they're evergreen a value to you?
Speaker 2:No, they're still perfectly good. They're evergreen? Yeah, absolutely. And this idea of buzz is that you have your message and you want to create curiosity about it, and you're doing it not just when you're launching your book, or not just right before you launch, not just right after you launch. There should be some longevity, and so if you are just sprinkling little bits of information out there on a consistent basis, you're going to create buzz, and when you do that now, your book is connecting to people.
Speaker 2:Over time, you're connecting to people because you've got a solution to their problem, and so, just like we're having this conversation today, that's a way to create buzz around your book and your business. And so I show authors they can do something all along the way of their career and that that book has no expiration date. So why not do it? And, and even better, I was friends with Jim Horan, who wrote the one page business plan, and I was friends with Joel Friedlander, who wrote the self publishers companion, and they made a career worth of business and billions of dollars. They had multiple things that they did, but they used that core and they kept sharing the message.
Speaker 1:It that's so important. Do you find that it's the mindset first that you have to work with? When new authors come into your purview and they start working with you, that it's like you really have to get them out of? That is a one and done marketing launch versus like this long-term thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, too too many people have been sold the bill of goods that, oh my gosh, you've got to be a number one best. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah yeah.
Speaker 1:Rightels, who is?
Speaker 2:brilliant and he has sold a boatload of books. Plus, he's been number one in several categories. I think one of his books was in 30 different categories. But you know what he said. Is that the same as the person who has sold a million books and is on the New York Times bestseller list? No, you can't compare the two Right? But what he focuses on, and what I really recommend too, is you're looking at how to get other people talking about your message talking about the book.
Speaker 2:So that's what I think is far more valuable. And, yes, and switching up your mindset, it is not just you wrote this book and that's it, that it is the content of that book that you want to be sharing with people. And then they're going oh, I want some of you to take home with me or I want you in my hand. That's when they buy your book and they may never even open it up because you know what've shared your stuff, but they now can go back and look it up.
Speaker 2:They can tell other people about it. So yeah, so I'm kind of the person that says, all right, you may be shy, I am, I admit it. I am shy, I'm okay once I started, but getting me in the room and opening my mouth is another thing. So you might be shy, but you need to get over that, because publishing means you are making public. You are making public and now the onus is on you to stimulate those conversations, right?
Speaker 1:I love that Do you think the biggest challenge, then, that authors have in monetizing their books is getting to that point where they are encouraging others to share their work or talk about them Like cause. To me, I feel like that is very much a difficulty, where you have a book and you love it so much, but everyone else is kind of doing their own thing, especially authors Like we. We tend to gravitate towards other authors. A book and you love it so much, but everyone else is kind of doing their own thing. Especially authors like we tend to gravitate towards other authors, not necessarily towards other readers, and so it's hard to then get other authors to share your work unless you're like really doing big things like newsletter swaps or something along those lines. So what is your secret there?
Speaker 2:oh well, this, this is just. It's so simple you might not even think that you would just ask huh, you just ask. You just ask Dang it. I know I want you to succeed, I want you to succeed. So, if I am being the first and the first person who said this very clearly, jeff Goins, who's, I think he's going to be our, he's going to be our keynote at the Redwood Writers Conference in October.
Speaker 2:So great, I know so he said, give before you ask and do it long before you ever even think that you're going to write a book. So if you establish your connections with people, you're not bugging them. But, seriously, the numbers also come into play. So if I want to have, say, 100 reviews of my book or I want people to know about it, I'm going to probably ask around 10 times that many people, right, approximately.
Speaker 2:But if you and I have been in conversation, we know each other, we might be networking in the same circles, and I say, carissa, tell me how I can help you. And I do that. And I say, oh, carissa, I've got, I've got a solution for this problem you mentioned. Here it is, and I give that to you. So when I have my book ready to go, I'm going to say, carissa, would you be, would you be helpful to me? And I give you the stuff to do it. I give you swipe copy, I give you images of my book, I offer to be on your podcast and I'm looking to help you fill your podcast with other guests who are awesome. So strategic.
Speaker 1:That's so smart right and it seems so simple because there's a lot of, like you said, shy or introverted authors who just even myself I don't consider myself introverted, I just consider myself probably too busy for my own good sometimes, and so I need to like pull back enough to get strategic like that and go. I've talked to an awful lot of people. I could ask them for these things or I could, because I'm helping people all the time but it just doesn't. I'm more of a helper and not so much of a asker, and it's so hard for me to get beyond that at times. It's so weird. I don't understand why that is either.
Speaker 2:Well, it tends to be more. It's a feminine trait. You know it's a feminine trait, you know, it just is there. But what flipped me on that? I went through a period where I was very ill and I said, okay, I need to look at. I put all this goodwill in the bank. And I didn't even look look at it that way, but I had put all that goodwill in the bank.
Speaker 2:As Jeff said before, you ask, don't just say oh, would you review my book, would you give me a blurb? And you've never done anything for somebody. So I looked at this when I got sick I said, oh, number one, everyone's going to know because I'm. Yeah, I was going to go bald in about two weeks after I started chemo and I said, okay, I'm going to be doing this, I'm going to still be around, but I need some help. Well, I had contributed in my own immediate community. I contributed worldwide. People helped me and I had to ask and it was really not how I normally show up, but because I did that and I got to receive the gift of their support, whether it was physical, monetary, all different kinds of things, it made me appreciate the fact that when you ask someone to help you. You are allowing them to express their care, their love for you, and it made me go. It's okay, and if people don't say yes, I'm okay with that too.
Speaker 1:I'm not attached to the outcome and if people don't say yes, I'm okay with that too. I'm not attached to the outcome. Right, yeah, right, I love that. The gift of receiving their, their help. I love that. That's so good. Oh, and it's such a beautiful way to to reframe it too, because so often I think we're not allowing people to help us. We're not. It's like we're blocking that kind of abundance, and and then we're wondering why aren't the royalties coming in, why aren't the readers coming in? It's like, well, we're blocking all the abundance in so many different ways. So what can you do in order to open those floodgates? So good, yeah, that's so good. Oh, my, oh, goodness. Okay, so let's, I need to talk about the three keys to visibility, impact and income, because I know you're an expert with this. I love this concept. So can you elaborate on what this means?
Speaker 2:Well, if you think about it, people might find you a lot of different ways. They could find you. They could find your book in a bookstore. Hopefully. They could find your book on a directory, a place to shop, and that place to shop might be online. That's one way. But what if someone told you about that book? Are you more likely to go get it? Check it out, If someone told you about it?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, at my local bookstore I love this, and there was another bookstore that did this as well there are staff picks, so they I know this is exactly what they do and I will do a visual for you. Okay, sure, picture, there's a bookshelf, here is an index card, and then on here is oh, jude says this book is a great read. It is a thriller. You'll never guess the ending. And check it out. Okay, so this is now. These are known as shelf talkers.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, from the wine industry, which I also was in. So there's a shelf talkers. Yep, yep, from the wine industry, which I also was in, so there's a shelf talker. So I, if I go through the bookstore and I see one of these, I'm going to look at that book more than I'm looking at all the other ones same.
Speaker 1:I used to work in a bookstore, so I can't I completely get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love it. I love it. Yes, librarians love it. Yes, librarians are your best friend. They will recommend books and people do go to libraries, and we have some awesome libraries all across the world. Ok, so that's these are. These are word of mouth, yeah.
Speaker 1:Did you ever buy?
Speaker 2:a book because you heard about it on a podcast. Because you heard about it on a podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, mostly nonfiction for me. I don't tend to listen to fiction as much on podcasts, I don't know why Isn't that interesting? But fiction I get all the time from like Facebook groups and friends where I'm like okay, I must read this book.
Speaker 2:Exactly exactly. And you know what Joanna Penn turned me on to Leigh Bardugo Okay, yeah. And you know what Joanna Penn turned me on to Leigh Bardugo Okay yeah. And I would never have. I never would have found her without that recommendation. Isn't that interesting? So these are visibility things, okay. So you want to get people talking about you. You want to be visible. If you're an author and you're a nonfiction author, does it have your book on your LinkedIn profile? Because there's a section that you can put publications. So you want to think about where am I already showing up that?
Speaker 2:where people know me and what can I do to help them know that I'm an author? Okay, so your profiles need to be sharp and they need to be on point. You also want to be giving value all the time. So what, if, what, if? What if you took your book and you took pieces of it and you are popping it out in the world? It could be in a speech, a live speech in person on Zoom. It could be at a conference. It could be that you're taking that and you're turning it into a visual that you put into social posting. So people are getting samples of you all over the place. You might do podcast guesting, which I think is like number one. Those are evergreen. They're evergreen bits of wisdom, of wisdom.
Speaker 2:And if you're giving people solutions that help them, what about asking the people who you've helped to give you a testimonial? So you're getting third party verification. You're getting them to share about you and their group of people is not all the same people you know. So you're making these circles that keep going out and out and out in the world so you share. You are not being promotional. You're not saying, oh, I'm the best, whatever ever. You're saying here's a problem, here's a solution, here's how you can have that too, and if you want to know more, here's how to contact me. That's all I don't. I am not a person who says, oh, slam money all over the place to promote yourself. Do it organically first, and then decide if you want to put money there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I agree with you on that because there's there's a value in like number one. Is there interest really in this thing? First? Plus, you're building that foundation, like you said, with the people that you're trying to connect with. That makes so much sense.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I love that. Okay, so how, in your opinion? How important is branding for authors and what would you think? What would you tell them as the first step? I know what it would be for me I was a graphic designer in a past life but I would love to know your interest and your take on it. Right, so what, what, what? What should authors be thinking about when it comes to their brand?
Speaker 2:Well, look at other books that are like yours, or authors you feel that are like you, and I'm not saying you want to copy them, but you want to. There there are some very specific things that happen. If you go and look at books in a genre, there will be similarities and there's going to be some real big standouts. So I want you to think about what do you stand for? What are your unerring principles? Who are you in the world? What do you want to be known for? And when it comes to branding, because, yes, we're yeah, we're not past life graphic designers we're still doing it.
Speaker 1:We are still doing it, but I'm only doing it for me now, I'm not doing it for other people, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:But look at your colors. Do they resonate? Not just that you like them, do they resonate with your audience? I always start with talk to your readers. What do they need, what do they like? What do they notice? Need what do they like, what do they notice? So look at the colors that are appropriate for the age range, look at the fonts that are appropriate for that group. That will catch their eye but are also within in the circle of oh yeah, I can see that that's a non-fiction book. It's got. I've got two books on my desk right now and they both have very big titles.
Speaker 2:Typography matters the consistency of your type, the consistency of your colors. So you're thinking of your brand. If my colors and I'm switching my colors right now and I'm switching up my brand so black and white with probably a pop of either pink or red, which is fine, because these are mostly black and yellow, I can't wear yellow, I mean not even. So you've got to think about. You have to think about that too. Don't pick colors in your brand that you want to go every time you look at them. So the brand needs to embody you, embody your book, and it should be something that is timeless, not just oh. Right now, the hot new thing is let's put zigzaggy whatever.
Speaker 2:No, your book is going to be there for a while and you want to feel comfortable with it for a while. So look at you. Look at you. You're part of the brand. Look at the statement you're making and make sure the type and the colors amplify that rather than diminish them. And probably, if you're a first time author and you're looking at your book cover design, your name is not the biggest thing on the cover. Your name is going to be there, but your solution is the big thing and think about writing. Think about it too with books. This is probably not a one and done. This is part of this is the first one and you're going to be doing some others. So if you were doing a series, what do you want to live with?
Speaker 1:right, right, that's so key. It really is when, typically, when I am writing a series or planning a series, mostly in fiction, um, I will plan out the whole series, not only for the. You know the story arc and what's happening in each book, but I'll actually sit down and then do the entire cover series at the same time so that the covers are all matching, they all have the similar vibe and you're you're in that same flow of it. But that's me as a, an author who designs. But it's helpful, if I think, if authors do the same thing and can reach out to their cover designer and say, even if it's like the first two or three books, can you get covers that are matching? Kind of puts you in that headspace.
Speaker 2:Yeah well it does, and you may not stay with exactly what you started with. That's the other thing too. It's okay to re-brand your book in a way. Well, I shouldn't say just rebrand it. What I'm really saying is, if you start out and you you know you've got a cover and you're really enthusiastic about it. But what if something really does change radically? Yeah, it's okay, recover your book, and if you look at any, any book that's been out there for a while, that is still a bestseller. I have. I have always back here behind me somewhere I have the seven habits of highly effective people. It hasn't just had one cover. Yeah, it's had a different covers over the years. The message is still the same, but the way it's being shown is a little different.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Sometimes covers stay the same forever and ever and ever. Sometimes they don't, and sometimes, like with a series, you may go back. Maybe you published it 10, 15 years ago. You may go back and say you know what, it needs a little bit of freshening up so that it still looks contemporary. And you go back and do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and sometimes it's fun too, like there are romance authors who have like one type of book for the ebook and one type of cover for the paperbacks. You know, it's like just in case you know all the things, just to make sure that you can be standing in public and still have your book out there. So there's all sorts of different ways to be able to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with you on that 100%. That's fun.
Speaker 1:Okay. So when it comes to impact, what does that part mean for authors, like how can they measure the impact that they're making with their books?
Speaker 2:Oh, this is a good one. Think about starting from. What are your goals? So, if I'm writing a book because I want to be known as an expert, how would I measure that? Well, it could be that how many times am I being asked to speak at an event, virtual or in person? It could be how many companies are hiring me to come in and train people using this methodology. So you've got to have an idea in your head. What are your measurable markers? And it's different for each of you. If your, if your goal is just to sell books, you're missing a lot of money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got to think beyond just this book. Is it turning into a course? Is it turning into a podcast? Is it turning into a system that you are selling? You got it, you got to know that. So those are some of the things I think are really critical to know. And on the credibility side, are there people quoting you? You've said something brilliant. Are they quoting you? Are you making an effort to not just say something once, but in different ways? Some people listen, some people look, some people want to see a video. You can do a LinkedIn live on one chapter of your book.
Speaker 1:So good, yeah, yeah, that's so smart, I think, for for me too, there's a little bit of and I don't know if this was just ingrained in me that I don't like repetition personally, and so it's like then when I'm, when I'm doing different things, that's like I have to physically force myself to do it again, because I know, I know, logically, I know what you just said is is true, and and yet for me I'm like, but I've already done it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, how do?
Speaker 1:authors get over that. Is it literally like give it to a PA so they have to deal with it? It's no longer you.
Speaker 2:That can be a really good solution. So you're the creator and only you can come up with that part of the equation. But you, if, if, if you're like Carissa and myself once we've done it, we've done it, we're on to something else, right? Well, there are other people, and in a past life that used to be me. I used to be the person who was the support person, who did all that, who distributed the information, who made those follow up calls, who reached out to people the information, who made those follow-up calls, who reached out to people. Hire somebody. If that's not your thing, you can find people who are reliable and you may not just have one person, so someone who is just an ace, say, on Instagram, but they might suck at creating newsletters for you or sending out email. Get people who are really good at the thing that you need them to do. Do it as a project, rather than saying I'm just hiring somebody and they're going to do all of my. No, that might happen down the road, but try them out first as a project person down the road, but try them out first as a project person.
Speaker 2:And that project oh, even even my friend, ted Perdomo, who wrote the ultimate LinkedIn guide and it's there's three. There's three editions of that. Okay, even he did this the first time. He had one virtual assistant go through and pick out quotes. Then he said, oh man, this is like boring or it could be better. Not that it was boring, but it could be better. And so then he had like three different people go through the third edition and so then he could pick and choose. They were all trained to speak in his voice, but they, each person, had a different viewpoint, so they would find this was interesting to them. So you've got to think about that. It's not about, it's not about you, it's about the reader. So what do they want to know? So if there's those things that you know will make a difference, get people to help you. Don't try to do it all yourself, because there's like way too much. Start by learning how to do it, and then you can have procedures and share that and get it done.
Speaker 1:I love that I'm curious to know what your idea is with AI, because I know like, with something like that, my brain instantly goes oh, I could put my manuscript into ChatGPT, for instance, and be like okay, chat, you're the best marketing professional on the planet. This is my customer, my ideal customer avatar and what they're looking for. Pick some really awesome quotes out of this chapter so that we could use it for marketing Like. Would you be like ooh, no, or are you like yeah, why not? Like what's your thought process on AI right now?
Speaker 2:Well, I happen to be AI positive In the respect that you just said.
Speaker 2:Ask for suggestions, yeah yeah yeah, yeah, and there are different large language models, so not, they're not all equal, right, some are better than others and, as an author, depending on what you're doing. So if you were looking to do marketing, um 4.0, which is now free, I have. I have a paid account too with opening. That is just perfect. You would say this is my audience, I would like help with my marketing and, and you know, give me suggestions. Here's a chunk of it. Now, I don't know if you can put the whole thing in in open AI. You can in Claude.
Speaker 1:You can in a custom GPT, but it's still not. Unless you point it to a specific area of the PDF, it's still not great finding it.
Speaker 2:Exactly so you want what I'm suggesting you do with any of the AI tools and there are a myriad of them try them out. Take a chunk of your text and try them out and do exactly what you said. Give us very specific prompt, but it's iterative. If you and I were talking and you said, okay, here's a chapter from my book, pick out quotes, well, I might do that. And then we're going to have another conversation and you're going to go, oh, could you focus more on, say, for instance, could you focus more on how this makes money? And then I'd go back through again. And so you're refining the conversation.
Speaker 2:You are using the AI as an assistant, so I look at it as AI assisted authors tools that can help you. But for marketing, oh my gosh, you can. Pretty much. You could do your back cover fairly easily using AI, because you're saying here's, you know, here's an, here's the outline of my book and how, how you're the marketing expert and here's my target. You put in the information about your target. Give, give me some ideas for my back cover. That's so. It's a, it's a conversation, and so you can generate. You can generate email sequences which you will then go and tweak. You're not going to just take it whole hog, but you can generate email sequences, you can do your back cover, you can do a series of posts, instagram, linkedin if you're still using X, which I'm not so experiment, that's kind of my watchword. Experiment, Don't just try one and go away. See what comes up.
Speaker 1:I am so in agreement. Yeah, I'll continue. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:And you've tried different models and there are ones you like and ones you don't like because they don't sound right to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and sometimes they're easier than others or it just works better in your brain versus another one. There's so many tools that are out there now that will use iterations of, like ChatGPT for instance, but they're giving you smaller little context windows and that just doesn't work for my brain. I like that really big open, uh, open ai version like. I like chat gpt and how it works. I like claude and how it works, but for different things, and so it's. It's very interesting to just see how they're kind of evolving and shaping things. But the more specific we can understand how to prompt them and I don't even know if prompt is like even the best word anymore. It's. It's like the best way we can have this conversation, this iterative conversation, knowing that we're going to go back and forth until we get what we want. It's like it's so it takes the pressure out of oh, I have to make sure this prompt is perfect.
Speaker 2:I haven't come up with the perfect prompt yet. Oh, in fact yesterday I was, I was. I decided I wanted to create some images and I I put in my prompt and it didn't quite get it. So then I did another one and it it was. Over time I got closer to what I wanted and even though I thought I was very specific, you have to learn it is, it's learning another language.
Speaker 1:It really really is.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, not all of the tools are equal and you have to be comfortable, but, like anything else, I can still. Well, this isn't. These are two tools I will highly recommend to every writer. If you're not using them already, you probably are missing out on some stuff Grammarly and Pro Writing Aid and they're not the same and you have to see which one you resonate more with. But they will help you with the stuff that is probably less important in your brain, but it is at the end, but it isn't while you're creating.
Speaker 1:Right, I agree, and those are technically both AI enhanced tools as well. So yeah.
Speaker 2:And so when people say, oh my God, this guy's falling AI is coming, yes, well, you know what you look. Do you have a smartphone? Yes, that's AI. I like the idea that these models are becoming more natural language, and so, instead of having just like when we used to have to do Google searches and you had to just ask, oh my God, you had to think how is Google thinking about this, so I can ask the question to get the result that I'm looking for, right, yeah, oh that used to drive me.
Speaker 1:It's so nice because now you can ask the same question you would have asked Google, except do it to chat GPT and find out what the heck is going on, faster than like having to search through a whole bunch of search results. So great, yeah, love that.
Speaker 2:Using it for research. I think that's the other thing that I strongly recommend for AI Use it for research. If you're doing historical, if you want to know, oh, what did other people say about the topic you're writing about, whether you're doing fiction or nonfiction. Doing research, you can get a lot of value. But you also still need to be sure you're checking Are these real links? Is this real or is it a hallucination? But that's getting, that's starting to start. What do I want to say? It's less frequent that you're getting these really garbagey hallucinations. You're getting, you're getting real information that can, that can support you.
Speaker 1:I've seen that over the past year too, because I've been teaching AI for authors probably since about this time last year actually and it's gotten so much better at not no longer hallucinating. There are times where it will kind of get hung up and maybe start to take longer to process things, but the hallucination aspect of it is is definitely diminished a lot. Yeah, even with the custom gpts and things like that it's been so much easier to work with.
Speaker 2:It's great. Well, the tools keep improving. The more we use them, the better they get. And if you even remember back when you maybe first started using Amazon as a search tool, because it is, Amazon is a search engine.
Speaker 2:Google is a search engine. Youtube is a search engine. Google is a search engine. Youtube is a search engine. Any directory where you're listening on, you know to a podcast. Those are directories. Use them. They are search engines. Spotify has an oh my God, spotify. When I switched to Spotify for listening, I was amazed because I'd been using Pandora name. I was amazed because I'd been using Pandora, I'd used Apple podcasts and music, but Spotify had a better engine for not only finding things, but it was, it was paying attention to my preferences and it would give me suggestions that made more sense to me, suggestions that made more sense to me. And it wasn't so repetitive because I found I found most other podcast directories boring and I, like you, I was a little fresh sometimes, but I also. I can also save what I love and get notified when there's new stuff.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Yeah, that's so smart. I have not been on Spotify for a podcast. I should actually look into it, because I use Apple still when I'm listening to podcasts at the moment, but it's because I have Apple everything and so to me it just makes sense. But, suggestion wise, I think I would like those new suggestions, because that's part of the reason why I ended up on Podmatch actually this past year, where it seems like all the author podcasts it's almost like everyone's interviewing the same people and they're having the same conversations. I'm like I don't need to just be repeating what everyone else is doing. I want to talk to new and insightful people, right, so it was like I need to do something different because this is not me. Yeah, so I'm interested. I'm going to have to check that out now and see what it can come up with, to see what my actual interests are versus what I'm just listening to, because I love these particular podcasts.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and people should subscribe to your podcast because I will. I'm I'm a fan, I'm not just a guest, I am a fan. You bring on people and the way that you interview is well, you know, you're thoughtful, you're thinking about, you're not just doing oh, I've got five questions I'm going to ask.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God, questions I'm going to ask. Oh, my God, you know it's out of misery right now. You, I've been on podcasts where I've been interviewed, where it's like that and you're like what just happened?
Speaker 2:Like okay, yeah, oh, my God, you know I want it should be a conversation. Let's see what we're doing with this. So I love your podcast because of that, because you always bring really quality information to your audience and because you care. You really package it in a in a way that it's Great to listen to, great to refer to.
Speaker 1:So I really I appreciate that too. That means a lot. I love that. Okay, so I got to. I obviously we talked about AI, so I want to get your your concept on this about trends too, because I would love to from your marketer's perspective, other than AI, which is so huge and it's just revolutionized our landscape. But what do you see as things that authors should be paying attention to in terms of trends coming up? Is there anything else, anything that's like on the horizon that we're all kind of going to get sidelined by? Do you think?
Speaker 2:oh, that's interesting. Well, the biggest trend I am seeing more and more authors are selling directly to their customers. So what I'm talking about. There are several ways this can happen. We're seeing a bigger number of authors using crowdfunding as their marketing campaign.
Speaker 1:I'm actually going to be doing that this fall. Yeah, with my next nonfiction title, actually, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a marketing campaign and it doesn't end once you're funded. That's the thing. So this is a newer thing. So you do the, you do the crowdfunding, you've got your different levels of participation and so you get, say, you get funded. Well, you can keep that crowdfunding campaign open after the book is published. But people get goodies, they get more goodies before the book is published. But people get goodies, they get more goodies before the book is published. So you use that foundational marketing campaign and can keep it moving.
Speaker 2:And we are seeing people not just doing that, they are looking at well, what if I wrote this book and what if I offer chunks of it? So we're seeing serialization reappear. It used to be a thing back in Charles Stinson's day, but we're seeing, we're seeing more authors do that with both fiction and nonfiction. Interesting Like pay as you go. So you might, you might offer here's stuff through Patreon or here's stuff through Payhip or whatever subscription model you're using, and so, as people consume things, then they're buying the next thing and the next thing, because they want more. You know what, instead of a $20 book or $30 book, you've now turned it into Okay, guys limit really yeah yeah, so you're making more and bundling right and what I'm talking about is do an event.
Speaker 2:Do an event you offer, you're inviting people to attend an event and you are including the book in the price of admission. Do you think you're going to get more people to come to your event, or physical, or online? So those are the. Those are, those are a couple of the trends. So it's it's more about selling direct, because when you do that, what happens? I now have your email address.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and a lot of times. If you're doing it in person now you have that like face-to-face repertoire too. You guys understand each other. There's that, no, like trust factor.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I mean I've done it. I've done it myself as a consumer. I went to an event. Gretchen Rubin was releasing one of her books and she was going to be at a bookstore in San Francisco which is an hour and a half from door to door because driving and parking Right but my husband and I went. It was so much fun. I got to meet her in person, I got to shake her hand, she got to shake her hand, she got to sign my book and I was thrilled. But you know what? That was I. It was worth it to me to pay to do that. So if you're having a book launch, yeah, no, what if you're giving a talk and your book is part of the ticket, You're going to sell more books and get more people in the room.
Speaker 1:Right, absolutely. I've even heard of people doing that sort of thing at Barnes Noble. I mean, I don't know if Barnes Noble will allow the ticket part to be part of it, but you giving a talk about something that's related to your books and then your books are there for sale too. I mean there's so many different ways to do it.
Speaker 2:That for sale too. I mean, there's so many different ways to do it that's so smart. There are, there are. So I think. I think we're just seeing more innovation and I think what is happening to what?
Speaker 2:Because you were a designer and you may have gone through this back in the day when I was using Quark oh, yes, okay, before InDesign. So Quark was a really good tool. So there was Quark and PageMaker and I used both of them, but I mostly use Quark. Well, quark was notorious for having the snarkiest customer service in the world. So then InDesign came on the scene.
Speaker 2:Two things happened. They offered a free version when you bought your new Mac computer and I was like, I'll do that. I said, well, I'll try it out. And, by the way, oh, indesign can read your core files. So I tried it and I went oh, I have been an Adobe fan forever, I've been in there, I've been in there, oh've been in there. Um, oh God, I'm trying to think of the word, right, it's escaping me. I was in their um, testing groups focus group. So I was a focus group participant for several uh different products. So I knew, and they did, and they did uh, user groups which you could go to and I went to that and they were always giving away swag. So Adobe already had my heart. I opened up my first Quark file in InDesign.
Speaker 1:I never look back.
Speaker 2:I'm done and I used to teach Quark, no less, so I thought it was really funny. So think about are people going to gravitate to the people who are nice to them, who are giving them goodies all the time, who love them back? So it's this customer service model that now, and I don't even know if customer service is, it is customer service because you're serving your.
Speaker 1:Because you're serving your, yeah, so if you do that, people will follow you and they will spread the love, because you love them first. I love that. That's so good. That's so good, okay. So, judy, what is next for you and what's your mission when it comes to helping non-fiction authors? Is there anything really exciting on the horizon that we need to be cheerleading you for?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I have now started doing what I'm doing this twice a month. Right now it's called the Book Buzz Cafe. Love it, I know, and it's about an hour. I'm going to say it's about an hour because sometimes I get to talking, but it's not just me talking, I'm going to I share a tool, tip or concept each time we go through it in relative depth. This last one that I did was about how do you create your custom YouTube channel, because a lot of people don't even know that you can do such a thing. People don't even know that you can do such a thing, right. So I showed, I demoed how to do this, and and the reason we did it is because one of the people who attended the cafe the previous session said this is what they wanted to know. So I went through it. People ask questions along the way because I don't just go. Oh, we're going to go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, I show it and I show it on my stuff.
Speaker 2:So I was rebranding this did that. So the Book Plus Cafe is a place for authors to come with their questions about marketing also, to share their wins and to meet other people who are in a similar situation Because, of course, as we talked about earlier, if you do it together, if I help you out, you're likely to help me out when I need help. So we are building a community at the Book Buzz Cafe.
Speaker 2:And yeah, and so that's happening. And I am working on my workbook, which I have to add some more stuff to it because I did it in a in a course. So the the buzzworthy book blueprint workbook is almost done. I will have that up for sale soon and then people can buy that with an hour of my coaching time.
Speaker 1:Where will they be able to find that? On your website? Are they finding it on a Kickstarter Like how are you launching this thing?
Speaker 2:I'm a little bit afraid to do a Kickstarter for my very, very first thing. I still make books, but I haven't quite committed to doing it thing. I still make books, but I haven't quite committed to doing it. So information will always be on my website, which is bookmarketingmentorcom. I'll always have all those goodies up there, and if you go there now, there's a big button that tells you how to get the buzz so that you can then attend a Book Buzz Cafe, which I said is free.
Speaker 1:That is so good. I can't wait to join one of those. I'm going to have to go look at my calendar and find out which ones are open so that I can join.
Speaker 2:I would love to have you in the room because I want other experts in the room to share their wisdom. That's the way I roll. I like other people.
Speaker 1:It's so much more fun that way too, because then you can have a more dynamic conversation. You know so good Good. Well, Judy, thank you so much for being on the show today and sharing your wisdom. It's been such a joy speaking with you and being able to like get into like some of the nitty gritty of these things so good. Book marketing is one of the most fascinating aspects of publishing, in my personal opinion. I think a lot of authors do think that as well, so thank you for being here.
Speaker 2:Oh, I appreciate it so much. Thank you, Carissa.
Speaker 1:Wow, what an incredible conversation with Judy Baker. Her insights into book marketing are truly inspiring and I hope you're walking away with as many takeaways as I am Now. Judy's passion for helping authors shine is really unmatched, and I'm so grateful we had the chance to dive into this with her today. So be sure to check out the show notes for all of the ways that you can connect with her and learn more about her fantastic resources. But before we wrap up, I have a bit of news to share.
Speaker 1:As you know, when we approach the end of 2024, the Author Revolution podcast will be going on hiatus after the final episode, which will launch on Christmas Day. But don't worry, this isn't goodbye. It's more like a shift in focus. If you caught last week's episode, you know that I'm super excited to announce that I'll be launching a brand new podcast, a brand new business endeavor. I'm shifting gears and it's all going to be dedicated to the NeuroDivergent Manifestor. Everything kicks off January 1st Now. This podcast is going to explore manifestation through the lens of neurodivergence, and I can't wait to dive into this journey with you. There's so much I've been wanting to share, so many different insights and perceptions and things that I would love to be able to talk about, but they're not quite a good fit for authorship and I felt very stuck or very closed in boxed in, whatever the word is and I want to be able to just explore the way that I feel like exploring. So if you've loved following along here, I would be honored to have you join me there. Check out the show notes for all of the details, including the links to Jodi's amazing work and the social media platforms.
Speaker 1:The website is in process. I'm working on that right now and I've actually changed the name of the website. It's not ready to go. It's not NeuroDivergent Manifestor. I had a really cool insight in the middle of the night where my tagline for that particular brand is all going to be Manifest Differently. So the website is manifestdifferentlycom. So hang tight. The website's in the build process. We're going to have lots of cool stuff coming out of that direction for 2025. But in the meantime, if you'd like to get the transcript, all the links, like we just discussed, head over to authorrevolutionorg. Forward slash 264 to get started. Thank you so much for being a part of this amazing community and, as always, go forth and start your author revolution. We'll see you next time you.
